Slow Productivity – A book review with Steve Mallett and Alun Bedding

[00:15:23] Alexander: Yeah, I think the book very much goes in the same way as digital [00:15:30] minimalism and deep work that he has written about. So do fewer things is one aspect. The next he talks about is work at natural pace. What does that mean to you, Steve?

[00:15:42] Steve: So I think within that chapter, actually, there’s a [00:15:45] section on the ideas of what’s called.

[00:15:46] Steve: seasonality. So you can, and I think that’s relatable in our work is that there are going to be some times where you’re intensely busy and other times where you can take your foot off the gas. I’m thinking of working on a, if you’re working on a FDA [00:16:00] submission, it’s all hands to the pump, long hours, you can’t, you’re going to be very unpopular if you start, working short hours.

[00:16:06] Steve: To be fair, I think projects I’ve worked on the companies I’ve Work for that. There’s a quite a good culture in terms of accepting that, okay, you’re going to be [00:16:15] insanely busy for a few weeks and then allowing you a bit of breathing space other times. So I think that the trick is when you’re then not busy and you have some spare time to use that effectively.

[00:16:26] Steve: Maybe that’s the time to work on your, people often call them non project [00:16:30] initiatives. There’s always work to do, but if you’re, If your company has given you back a little bit of breathing space then that’s probably the time to be focusing on your kind of bigger projects.

[00:16:39] Steve: Maybe it’s working on a, within PSI, a special interest group something like that. So I think it’s accepting that there’s [00:16:45] going to be I don’t think we can all, work like Isaac Newton or these people that just, do one great piece of work every 10 years or something, but I think the idea of seasonality was an idea that, that seemed quite relatable to me.

[00:16:56] Alun: Yeah, and one of the things, the one that really [00:17:00] stood out for me, and I talked about something very similar on one of the Friday podcasts, was this idea of making a five year plan. And Cal in his podcast talks about lifestyle centric career planning. And to me, the five year plan, [00:17:15] fits into that. So almost okay, where do I want to be in five years and working back from that?

[00:17:20] Alun: And that to me means to work at a natural pace. So bringing in the seasonality that Steve mentioned, it might be, I can work hard on certain things for a [00:17:30] short amount of time, but then I need to take a break. And the more I do that, the more I’ll get to my lifestyle, what I want to see in five years. If you think about an athlete, Athletes do this very well after most athletes when [00:17:45] they’re doing their training Do not train at 100.

[00:17:48] Alun: They don’t even train 80 Most of them will train around 20 to 30 percent of where they need to be. They don’t go Every session i’m going to go for the max i’m going to go for the max i’m going to go for [00:18:00] max They are aiming at One or two particular, I’m going to talk about a runner here. One or two particular races where that’s where their target is.

[00:18:09] Alun: How do I get to that particular target? I don’t try all my time. Otherwise I’m [00:18:15] going to burn out. And the subtitle of the book is to, is all about burnout or preventing burnout. If you’re running and running, always at full capacity, without taking a break, without that [00:18:30] seasonality, you are eventually going to burn out.

[00:18:34] Alexander: Yeah, I think that is a very important lesson, yeah, that we need to take into account into our calendar. I think [00:18:45] the. What I’m seeing is that people don’t have these valleys anymore. Yeah. It’s project completed as always, the next one is already on fire. Yeah. And you go from rush to rush.

[00:18:59] Alexander: And [00:19:00] that is that’s just not good. That’s just not sustainable. Yeah. Work is a marathon, not a thousand sprints, after each other. Yeah.

[00:19:09] Alun: There’s something that’s come to me, Alexander, just as we’ve been talking, and as I’ve been thinking about this, [00:19:15] we, in the pharmaceutical industry, we’re driven by deadlines.

[00:19:18] Alun: You’ve, what you’ve said there is we’ve got one deadline, the minute we finish that, we’ve got another deadline, we’ve got another deadline, we’ve got another deadline. I remember when I was doing my PhD, still working in the industry [00:19:30] within my first year, I hadn’t really achieved much. And I was panicking.

[00:19:34] Alun: I was like, Oh yeah, what’s going on here. And my supervisor said, you have to think about the long game in a PhD. It’s not about achieving a deadline. Now it’s about achieving [00:19:45] the PhD after the end of your time, when you do a part time PhD, five years. The end of those five years, it’s about producing something of quality.

[00:19:53] Alun: The end of those five years. And that was a wake up call to me that maybe it’s not all [00:20:00] about, I need to hit this deadline. There’s more to it than that than hitting that deadline. Yes, that deadline is important, but it’s all about me as a person and then progressing me as a person as opposed to I just need to hit that deadline.

[00:20:14] Alun: [00:20:15] So coming back to Steve’s point about seasonality, that to me is a really crucial crucial aspect of this.

[00:20:22] Alexander: Yeah, let’s go to the last It’s because you already mentioned that and obsessing over [00:20:30] quality. What does that mean to you? And how is that different from perfectionism?

[00:20:37] Steve: Yeah, I think this isn’t the most important section of the book really, because without the section, it’s just what life balance, which is important, but [00:20:45] it’s been.

[00:20:45] Steve: dealt with many times before. This follows naturally if you’ve created this situation, where you have less on your plate, I think obsession over quality, I think there’s a phrase that says it both Demands and enables [00:21:00] slowness, so one of the examples in the book, a musician who kind of escaped the music industry rat race. And that what she went on to achieve the high quality required that, that breathing space, that lack of busyness and also obsessing over quality [00:21:15] enables slowness because, you’re recognizing your time is more.

[00:21:18] Steve: It’s more valuable. Again, I think this comes naturally over time as you get progressing your career. You see my, my, my time isn’t valuable. I’m going to do fewer things. And, I think that gives you the [00:21:30] confidence to focus on some things more than others. And, you might, again, coming back to, you might be working on a PSI SIG and you want to make an impact on the industry and you’re choosing maybe to work with other colleagues in the industry on a piece of [00:21:45] work.

[00:21:45] Steve: And it’s got to be right. You’ve got, this is going to make a big impact. So quality is critical. Yeah, I think this ability to see the big. The big picture that comes with experience, I think it gives you the confidence to know what to focus on.

[00:21:59] Alun: [00:22:00] And you mentioned, Alexander, what’s the difference between this and perfectionism?

[00:22:05] Alun: Perfectionism to me is something you can never achieve. What is perfectionism? It’s being without any sort of error whatsoever. That’s just unrealistic. We’re [00:22:15] human beings. We can’t aim for perfection. So we can aim for quality and can aim for progress rather than Let’s go for what is perfect and the trouble is then if we aim for quality so aim for perfectionism, we [00:22:30] just keep going and keep going and keep going.

[00:22:32] Alun: That’s not going to achieve anything because if we take our time, if we take our time, infinite amount of time to get the best quality thing out there, then It’s not the best quality because we haven’t achieved [00:22:45] it in conjunction with the deadlines that we have for it. So there has to be a time limit on producing that quality.

[00:22:52] Alun: And Steve’s absolutely right. This ties everything up together because it’s fine doing fewer things. It’s fine working at a natural pace, [00:23:00] but if you’re not producing quality, in conjunction with those, then those two are going to fall over. It’s almost like the seven habits. If you can do the seven habits, but if you’re not being proactive and not, and not tying it all together with the sharp and the saw, they’re all going to [00:23:15] fall over.

[00:23:15] Alun: So there’s always one habit in all of these, which ties everything together. And this is the one that does that.

[00:23:23] Alexander: And here we speak about quality. Now when the audience here’s quality, I think lots of people think about [00:23:30] SOPs working according to SOPs and things like this. What do you think Karl Newport thinks about quality when it comes to our work?

[00:23:39] Steve: Yeah, that’s a tough question. I think it’s, I think it’s quality following different things to different people. [00:23:45] And so I think it’s understanding the context. Even Within our industry, I work for CRO, so the quality is driven by what the client wants and delivering something that’s fit for purpose for them.

[00:23:58] Steve: If a client wants a report [00:24:00] or a plan, analysis plan or something like that, it’s understanding, obsessing over, The detail may not be what the client wants. They might want something that’s conceptual. And so it’s really it brings in listening skills and just [00:24:15] understanding what the client wants, or the stakeholder may be a regulator, so it’s understanding again, it’s to me, quality means focusing on the right.

[00:24:25] Steve: Right things and putting your efforts into the right things. There might be a particular unmet question [00:24:30] in a clinical development plan, and you need to fill those evidence gaps. And that’s where the understanding where the regulator is going to probably focus on these areas of weakness and putting your energies into that.

[00:24:41] Steve: So I think it’s how we define quality really depends [00:24:45] on understanding the overall goals. I know I haven’t answered your question. I don’t really know about.

[00:24:49] Alexander: I think that is pretty spot on. Yeah. Quality is if it meets or exceeds the expectations for the receiving end. Yeah. [00:25:00] When you write a manuscript, it’s for the audience who reads it.

[00:25:03] Alexander: Yeah. If you do a submission, it’s for the FDA, the email, whoever will expect. Yeah. If it’s for the client is it’s what is the client really expecting [00:25:15] here? Yeah. And yeah, at the same time, of course, you need to adhere to SOPs because that is what, your auditors will want as stakeholders, but just thinking about the auditors is, is not really [00:25:30] quality.

[00:25:30] Alexander: Alan, you’re nodding.

[00:25:33] Alun: Yeah, no, I am nodding. And I don’t know if Klaus talks about this in his podcast, but if, for example, if you haven’t done the groundwork of getting your processes right, so let’s take [00:25:45] an example where you’re outside of the pharmacy. I think SOPs are necessary, because SOPs provide An operational framework for you then to do your best quality because if they’re not in place For example, and the standard [00:26:00] processes and the regulatory guidelines and all of those they’re not in place You may have one sponsor doing something over here.

[00:26:07] Alun: That’s completely different to the sponsor over here So they’re not so so let’s take the regulatory example. They’re not looking at this [00:26:15] might be great quality for you. This might be great quality for you, but it’s not great quality for the patients You Which is where the FDA might, for example, be interested.

[00:26:24] Alun: So if we take it outside of our general lives, if we don’t have [00:26:30] standard things we do, so if we just live our life by going, yeah, I’m just going to do this. Can you just do this? I’m going to sleep whenever I want to. I’m going to watch, I’m going to look at my email. I’m going to look at chats and I’m going to look at social media without having it, any sort of.

[00:26:44] Alun: [00:26:45] structure, and that’s why I think the SOPs do, they bring some sort of structure into our lives, then we’re not going to produce quality because we’re not structured. I think SOPs are necessary to bring structure to what, to the work we do, which enables us to do [00:27:00] quality work.

[00:27:00] Alexander: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Very good.

[00:27:03] Alexander: So if you think about all these kinds of different things, how is that impacted? your daily life. What do you do differently after reading this book?

[00:27:14] Steve: For [00:27:15] me, I think it’s applying some things I already knew. Maybe as Alan said there is overlap with some of the previous Cal Newport books. So practical things like time blocking and calendars, just being big, trying to take control of my time and my [00:27:30] calendar, trying to see a bigger picture.

[00:27:32] Steve: So try not to getting swamped by small tasks. I think there’s a tip in the book about enough. Okay. We don’t, we can’t always just be. Control our time completely. But for every meeting that you have to go to you, you block off an hour. Let’s make kind of me [00:27:45] time to work on the bigger projects.

[00:27:46] Steve: And so try just trying to. At least explore the possibility of doing fewer things and maybe fighting the kind of the guilt that comes with being less busy, as I say, with your colleagues of all, when they’re all overloaded and you’re [00:28:00] trying to free up some time. That can be psychologically difficult.

[00:28:03] Steve: I think it takes a little bit of courage, but at the same time, trying to see the bigger picture and having bigger kind of initiatives that we’re working on that are, that we know are going to make a big impact. Yeah, I think. [00:28:15] There are small practical things that we can do in terms of being more, managing our time and the admin that we need to do.

[00:28:21] Steve: And that, that it’s inevitable trying to be. Efficient. I like, there’s one idea in the book that I quite is maybe rather than having endless backwards and forwards, what do you call it? Asynchronous [00:28:30] communication, create a shared document and say, everyone puts their thoughts in and then you maybe have a short meeting to discuss the ideas, if there are any conflicts.

[00:28:40] Steve: There are quite a few, as well as the grand ideas, I think there’s quite a few kind of practical [00:28:45] tips in the book that I’ve certainly been thinking about implementing.

[00:28:47] Alun: Yeah. Where I’ve used it, Alexandra, is thinking. Particularly about the limiting the number of missions and then limiting the projects within the missions.

[00:28:57] Alun: And so every request I get, [00:29:00] I, like I said before, I’m fortunate. I’ve worked for myself. I have control over my calendar. Most of the time I have control over my calendar. So I can, for example, if it’s a sunny day like it is today, and I want to go out for a walk, don’t have any [00:29:15] meetings, great, I’ll go out for a walk, but I can then think about a problem while I’m going out for a walk.

[00:29:19] Alun: That’s something that’s there in the book, but I’ve limited that down. So yesterday, for example, I got a request for a new project. I said, no, my capacity. [00:29:30] Because I realized actually that project is going to bring in so much more overhead that it’s going to take away from these other projects and therefore limit the quality.

[00:29:39] Alun: So I, I think it all comes, there’s a lot that comes back to that saying no, particularly when [00:29:45] it could be great. You look at it and go that looks like a fantastic new project, but maybe I’ve got to step away from that. So every new project I think about now under my coaching and my consulting, what sort of overhead is it going to bring?

[00:29:58] Alun: Is it going to bring too much [00:30:00] over? And if it is, then decline it. And that, and I’ve also recently given up the a diploma in something because that was producing too much overhead, which was taken away from my other projects. So I’m creating myself space, but again, like I [00:30:15] say, I have more autonomy over my work from that perspective.

[00:30:18] Alexander: I think for me, one of the most important things is. Not seeing being busy as a proxy for being productive, but actually looking into [00:30:30] what is really the outcomes that I want to achieve and create quality for these outcomes and not being in my inbox or my LinkedIn or whatsoever, or, you can probably count lots of social media there.[00:30:45]

[00:30:45] Alexander: All the time, but really focusing on fewer things at a given time point, and then really make meaningful progress. Thanks so much, Steve and Alan for this wonderful episode talking [00:31:00] about Cal Newport’s book Slow Productivity. Of course, you will find the link to the book and also to his other books in the show notes.

[00:31:09] Alexander: Thanks so much for being on the show.

[00:31:11] Alun: Thank you very much, Alexander. Thanks, Steve. Thank

[00:31:13] Alun: you.[00:31:15]

[00:31:17] Alexander: This show was created in association with PSI. Thanks to Reine and her team, VVS, who helped with the show in the background, and thank you for listening. Reach your potential, lead great science, [00:31:30] and serve the patients. Just be an effective [00:31:45] statistician.