Retention Of People: How To Keep Your Statisticians – As A Supervisor

Retention Of People: How To Keep Your Statisticians – As A Supervisor

[00:00:00] Alexander: Welcome to another episode of the Effective Statistician. Today it’s again Benjamin and myself. Hi Benjamin, how are you doing? 

[00:00:09] Benjamin: Good, [00:00:10] very good. Thanks, Alex. How are you? 

[00:00:12] Alexander: Very good. By the way, congratulations on your new role. 

[00:00:17] Benjamin: Thanks. Yeah, yeah. I’ve just, [00:00:20] just recently been announced that I’m promoted to the global head of biometrics biostatistics actually is in our, in our say in CYTEL.

[00:00:29] Benjamin: [00:00:30] So I’m really glad to have the opportunity and let’s see a lot of challenges on the way. 

[00:00:37] Alexander: Yeah, very good. And in [00:00:40] such a position, of course, there is one topic that is really, really important. And that is to retain [00:00:50] the statisticians. The programmers, the data scientists that you already have in your team. Lots of people, of course, talk about, Oh, [00:01:00] when we hire new statisticians, it’s so difficult to, to find the right ones and so on.

[00:01:05] Alexander: Yeah. can, of course, reduce the problem greatly by [00:01:10] retaining those that you have. Then you don’t get into the problem so much of open position. Of course, if you grow, then you still have get open positions. And that’s probably a [00:01:20] nice problem to have. However, retaining statisticians is is really, you know, a topic.

[00:01:27] Alexander: Yeah. What kind of numbers have you heard, [00:01:30] you know, across the industry? What, what kind of turnover rates in, in different areas of, of the [00:01:40] industry, how, how much do they vary? 

[00:01:44] Benjamin: Well, there’s there’s a big range. It’s difficult to say but could be you know something between [00:01:50] 10 and 30 usually where you have a turnover rate and It’s in at least in my experience over the last 20 years.

[00:01:57] Benjamin: I was this that it highly [00:02:00] depends on the economic situation so which you know, there’s Sometimes not much that you know impact that you individually [00:02:10] have you know if there are a lot of open positions, there’s a lot of Need demands and also then, you know, changing jobs is often very easy way of getting [00:02:20] an extra salary, you know, negotiated that is and that is in, in some you know, living situations for individuals, just the, [00:02:30] the criteria for some, you know, for some, you know, building house, if you just have something, so there’s, there’s there’s a lot of you know, external, you know, [00:02:40] Demand or external impacts on, on these numbers, but I would say in, in, in general, it’s maybe 10, [00:02:50] 15 percent turnover rate.

[00:02:52] Benjamin: Yeah. On average. 

[00:02:53] Alexander: Yeah. And of course it also depends on, on the countries. Yeah. I think there’s there’s [00:03:00] huge variation in terms of of laws, of course, in, in the different countries in terms of the speed at which you kind of leave, leave a company. So in, in the [00:03:10] US, well, very often, these are, you can count in days and in Europe very often you can count in months.

[00:03:17] Alexander: And so This is definitely a lot [00:03:20] of variation. So we will not speak about kind of exact numbers today. We want to talk more about what you as as a supervisor or as a [00:03:30] supervisor of supervisors, as an organizational leader, what you can do to retain your people. And [00:03:40] before we dive into that two things.

[00:03:42] Alexander: First, it is not about retaining people at any cost. So [00:03:50] sometimes you just notice that A certain person would be better suited for [00:04:00] something outside of your team that can have many different reasons. Maybe it’s just this person doesn’t fit with the team. Maybe it’s a person’s skill set doesn’t fit [00:04:10] with the team or maybe they have just developed so much that you as a supervisor.

[00:04:17] Alexander: You can’t offer them anything, [00:04:20] you know, that now fits their grown skill sets, their grown experience in your team anymore. Yeah. And so it’s not about retaining people at any [00:04:30] cost. So that’s, that’s one thing at the beginning. 

[00:04:33] Benjamin: Yeah, I can give more examples because this is it is, especially in a CRO, it’s about, [00:04:40] you know, there, there are limitations in terms of how much you can pay.

[00:04:43] Benjamin: I mean, there’s, there’s a range, right? So, but you, we cannot compete with Big Pharma, let’s say in a [00:04:50] way, in some ways, and also with the packages around. And that is, that is kind of a some, some like the packages or the benefits, let’s say, is [00:05:00] is something that people are looking for as well. It could be health insurances, could be car rates, could be, I don’t know, you know, whatever it is.

[00:05:08] Benjamin: And, and [00:05:10] so there’s, there’s always you know, we have had many discussions at the end and just realizing it’s by no means possible to compete with some [00:05:20] specifics that they, you know, the individual is looking for. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:24] Alexander: And of course it’s highly dependent also on, on personal situations. [00:05:30] Yeah. If you are young, you don’t have a family maybe you don’t even have a, have a spouse, have a partner.

[00:05:36] Alexander: And you’re super flexible. You can work wherever you are in the world. [00:05:40] Yeah. You are also really, really attractive to, to lots of people around the world. Yeah. Yeah. And you may kind of work [00:05:50] in two months at San Diego. You know, at the beach with very, very high salaries they are [00:06:00] also pretty high cost of living, I guess.

[00:06:02] Alexander: And, you know, then, then you want to maybe move to Boston and, you know, have completely different salary [00:06:10] or then to Shanghai or, or, you know, Tokyo or wherever. Yeah, 

[00:06:14] Benjamin: it is. It is. That’s why it’s, it’s like all about individual decisions and also [00:06:20] individual. Like the, the, for the managers, the supervisors actually to, to see this as an individual.

[00:06:26] Benjamin: I mean, that is one of the key. I think that is brings us [00:06:30] already to the point of where, where I believe. Retaining people actually starts is it’s a fundamental [00:06:40] one, which actually, actually, we shouldn’t be discussing this anymore is that the individuals are actually individuals and not FTEs. Yeah.

[00:06:46] Benjamin: Right. So, so the, that [00:06:50] is, that is something that I, I learned in, in many, in many ways that there could be groups that could be people that could be [00:07:00] departments are treating, I mean, counting FTEs is fine in one way. I mean, we need to do that, but treating them as [00:07:10] a, like an, like a number is just not the right way.

[00:07:13] Benjamin: Right. It’s true for working. I mean, obviously if you have individual contact and you, it’s [00:07:20] not, it’s not happening, but also as a company in general, it is a danger to not see the individuals as individuals. And that [00:07:30] actually is already the mindset, which we need to think through, because if you don’t have that, if the company doesn’t have that is we are talking, you know, against the walls at the [00:07:40] moment.

[00:07:40] Alexander: Yeah. . Yeah. And I’ve seen that where managers kind of move people around just because, oh, there’s, there’s, there’s more demand. [00:07:50] So, okay. Let’s take just five people from this group and move it over there. Yeah. To meet the minimum demand. And, and half a [00:08:00] year later, all the demand has shifted. Okay. So let’s take six from the other group and move them over here.

[00:08:06] Alexander: Yeah. And just because you [00:08:10] see, you know, you have your Excel spreadsheet in terms of, okay. Where’s the demand? Where’s the people? You know, just move, move people [00:08:20] around like FTEs, like numbers and then exit spreadsheet. 

[00:08:26] Benjamin: Yeah. And the second thought that came, [00:08:30] you know, when we brought up this, this topic is, is like it’s also very, like a very general one.

[00:08:36] Benjamin: Like a vendor general statement is if you, [00:08:40] you, you always trying to give your company like a reputation in whatever way it is. So could be like the, you know, the experts in that could be, you know, [00:08:50] the quickest, the fastest, the cheapest, whatever it is the best in class. And so the, the reputation is one thing, but are you [00:09:00] actually living it in the company?

[00:09:02] Alexander: I am. 

[00:09:03] Benjamin: If you, if you’re trying, if you’re trying to convince people to come, because you are the best statistician, you have the best [00:09:10] statistician, the best methodology experts whatsoever, you may have them, but actually is this a benefit to the people? That are joining the [00:09:20] company. So are they exposed to, to that knowledge, to that type of behavior that you, that you show yourself [00:09:30] for the outside, for the clients, for the, you know, for the patients, for whatever it is, I think, and that is, that is the crucial part because the, if you attract people to join the [00:09:40] company and they realize, Oh, it’s all a fake because it’s, you know, it’s a nice website, but actually that’s Then you can fight for reputed, for like an, like [00:09:50] retaining people as much as you want.

[00:09:52] Benjamin: It’s not what, why they came to that, to your company. So I think this, this is another just [00:10:00] general note which I realized is marketing is great, but do you actually live this in the company? So is it the culture of the [00:10:10] company? And if there’s a discrepancy, you have a bigger problem than others. 

[00:10:14] Alexander: Yeah, if you break the promises that you, that you made when [00:10:20] you hired people, yeah, then people get frustrated and Leave, or, which [00:10:30] is, I’m not sure what is actually better, they stay and are really demotivated.

[00:10:34] Alexander: They kind of quit mentally, yeah, not, not, not [00:10:40] physically, and that’s also really bad. Yeah, that’s a, that’s another way how you can lose people without [00:10:50] actually, you know, having an open position. Yeah. So when we think about this aspect of the promises you [00:11:00] made, yeah, so one thing is money, yeah, and we talked about this, so let’s take off the table.

[00:11:06] Alexander: What are other promises that we make to people [00:11:10] and reasons why they then join the companies? 

[00:11:16] Benjamin: First of all, the day to day work should be interesting to them. [00:11:20] So they should be fit. They should be aware Of what we are expecting from them to do So that is not not really like a promise in that regard, but I think it’s covering usually 80 to 90 [00:11:30] percent of the day to that that they need to Follow, I mean, you know, stats, lead role, whatever, whatever the job [00:11:40] is that the the person is joining the company for.

[00:11:44] Benjamin: So I tell, you know, my, my call usually when, when I have an [00:11:50] interview with people, I often do have first interview myself, like in an informal way. [00:12:00] Sometimes even, you know, just don’t listen to me, but now it’s before a talent acquisition is aware of it, right? So when there’s somebody interested in joining, I just [00:12:10] check it out by openly saying that is what we are looking for and trying to find out, is it actually what you are looking for?

[00:12:19] Benjamin: No. [00:12:20] So there’s usually job description out and there’s like a role explained with standard statement of what exactly it is. And, [00:12:30] and to be honest, in the, in the business that I’m in within you know, PBS, so unit based outsourcing. This is, it’s also very difficult to make this [00:12:40] so specialized that, that we can.

[00:12:43] Benjamin: identify unique experts on our need of unique experts that we could employ [00:12:50] for full time. We do have some extensions and, but usually it is very It’s a wide [00:13:00] variety types of studies of therapeutic areas of roles, interaction in groups, clients. It’s not, it’s not an FSP role, you know, it’s, it’s kind of, [00:13:10] so it’s a high variety and it’s difficult to put this into into like an expert role where you say, well, you need to do kind of, well, this is what we are looking for an expert in that and just give you [00:13:20] all expert roles in oncology.

[00:13:22] Benjamin: Yeah. 

[00:13:22] Alexander: You will only do biomarker research in oncology. What’s that? Yeah. 

[00:13:27] Benjamin: That is, I mean, it’s always excellent if we get [00:13:30] specific experts in, in fields that help us grow. And, and that is exactly the point, help [00:13:40] us grow, right? So where we where we need to, where we are promising our staff things and say, well, but you can develop into something, or you [00:13:50] can, you know, go to training, to conferences and deep dive further into specific topics that you are interested in.

[00:13:56] Benjamin: And I think that is, that is a promise [00:14:00] that we often do. I hope everyone is doing because especially I know around statisticians that the majority of statisticians is very much interested in learning more and more and more. [00:14:10] Yeah. And so we need to not only promise that and get the people hired, but actually deliver.

[00:14:17] Alexander: Yep. 

[00:14:19] Benjamin: That is the [00:14:20] responsibility of the manager of the teams is to give them the opportunity follow up on this, to allow them to [00:14:30] grow, to develop, and to actually give them also spare time. And which is difficult but Give them really allow an [00:14:40] allowance a possibility of attending trainings of attending conferences of doing Trainings maybe being an expert in something and delivering it to [00:14:50] internally and really just make them seen welcomed seen and developed as experts or even like in, in that role and [00:15:00] doesn’t need to be like an explicit expert, but just really like a delivery delivery of the promises that you make.

[00:15:07] Alexander: Yeah. I, when I think [00:15:10] about retaining people, highly motivated people, yeah. That come into the job and usually, you know, the first day you come into a job, you’re always motivated. Yeah. And you’re [00:15:20] motivated usually by three things. Mastery, autonomy, and purpose. [00:15:30] And what you just talked about is really this, this mastery aspect.

[00:15:34] Alexander: Yeah. We want to become better as statisticians, data scientists, [00:15:40] programmers. Yeah. We want to don’t want to write the same codes that we did. 10 years ago. Yeah, we don’t want to do exactly the same [00:15:50] models that we did 10 years ago. Yeah, we want to improve in terms of how we design studies. We don’t [00:16:00] usually just want to reruns the same studies that we have done again and again and again and again.

[00:16:06] Alexander: Yeah, there needs to be some, some learning. [00:16:10] And that learning is, as you said earlier, is highly variable across the different people. Some people really want to learn [00:16:20] more about the medical and therapeutic area background. Yeah, there are I’ve, I’ve seen statisticians that say, I just [00:16:30] want to work in oncology, you know, that is the area that is most interesting of me and I want to learn about all these different methods of action and, [00:16:40] you know, the various biomarkers and the new things that we can do there and and I’m also, you know, it, motivated because it is [00:16:50] oncology and maybe there’s some personal relationship to it, yeah, that maybe she or he [00:17:00] is, is a patient himself, herself, yeah, or family members had, had cancer, yeah.

[00:17:07] Alexander: So that is really important to [00:17:10] understand. For others, it’s about, I want to really hone in on my technical skills. You know, like I want to learn more about data science or [00:17:20] whatever. And yet for others, and that is also a possibility, maybe they want to become more people people people leaders, you [00:17:30] know, in terms of, they want to grow their people skills.

[00:17:35] Alexander: They want to develop potentially into supervisors. Understanding that is [00:17:40] really, really important. And then making sure that. He gives them, as much as possible, the right projects. [00:17:50] And it doesn’t mean that all the projects that they work on fit exactly that. Yeah? I’ve, I’ve one member of my team where just [00:18:00] one of the many projects he was working on was, you know, said highly motivated, motivational project.

[00:18:07] Alexander: But that was enough. Yeah. For him to [00:18:10] come to work and feel like this is not work, this is fun. Yeah. 

[00:18:14] Benjamin: I think, I think that is, that is something where, where the, the managers or the line [00:18:20] managers you know, I’m, I’m a little bit always like with super supervision is it could be also non-line managers.

[00:18:26] Benjamin: You a way. Yeah. ’cause that’s why I’m, I’m now putting this onto the line manager’s [00:18:30] role into the line manager’s shoes and then the, the line managers. have a, an enormous responsibility and this, [00:18:40] this is a little bit of a you know, like a side story is about the, the role of the line manager. So, and especially if you have a split role as a line manager, like in a, you know, you have your [00:18:50] projects and your supervision on, on people and, but you’re also line managing them.

[00:18:55] Benjamin: So that is the, the, the [00:19:00] responsibilities for the line managers is extremely important. Extremely underestimated. And what you just said about talking talking to individuals finding out what do [00:19:10] they want? What’s maybe the family? It’s the background. Is there motivation behind it? How do I can put it down and know what’s saying?

[00:19:17] Benjamin: Well phase two oncology [00:19:20] and and just keep it in mind next time there’s new phase two oncology coming And and look into this and just say and even if you don’t assign this to that person You Right because [00:19:30] it’s not available you say well, we just had one but actually, you know, you’re not available But i’m thinking of you right so I don’t forget you.

[00:19:37] Benjamin: It’s just really just keep keep it muddy. Keep it [00:19:40] motivated and The, my the fear is always a little bit so that, that you have so many competing tasks being a line manager [00:19:50] and taking care about the individuals is taking a long, a lot of time. It’s a lot of organizational work around it. It’s a lot [00:20:00] of like overview and also connection within the company to understand it.