Replay: The Chimp Paradox

Stuart McGuire

Chief Business Officer

Stuart leads the development of the business at Veramed as it evolves its position as the pharmaceutical industry’s preferred statistics and programming CRO partner.

Stuart has over 20 years of Pharmaceutical experience having first started work in anti-malaria research, which took him to Moshi, Tanzania. He then moved to the Clinical Research Organisation Chiltern (latterly Covance) where he took on Business Development, Leadership and Alliance Partnership roles delivering significant growth over 19 years. Stuart has a wide platform of relationships in the pharmaceutical and biotech industry, covering Europe, North America, and Japan.

Stuart holds a BSc in Chemistry from the University of Surrey (1999) and recently received his level III wine diploma from the Wines and Spirits Education Trust.

Transcript

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01:31
And today I’m again speaking with Stuart. Hi Stuart, how are you doing? Very well, Alexander, you well? Yeah, very good. We have an awesome book that we both read recently. And this one was a suggestion by Stu. So you got that from a couple of other people recommended. So what was the story behind that? Yeah, so the Chimp Paradox, it came completely fresh to me.

02:01
with us doing these book reviews, but I think he become quite open to people’s And actually somebody who trains at a very high level in sports and somebody who works in a very significant marketing role, both suggested the chimp paradox to me independently. So I was like, okay, when you get a recommendation, it’s worth having a look, quite a journey. What do you think?

02:30
Yeah, I completely agree. And this morning I looked at a little bit more into where the author is coming from. And so Professor Steve Peters, who wrote this book, is a psychiatrist working on performance and behavior of the brain, which first was really interesting for me because I spent about a decade in working in stats and psychiatry.

02:58
And so that was an interesting thing. And he’s also helping in the sports ball. Did you know that he is working together with the FC Liverpool? Yes, I did read that. And actually one of the things that I wanted to try almost sort of to spell in this book is that some people might think that this is for sports people and that it’s for sort of high performance training. And actually it’s really not. It talks.

03:28
at a level and we will start getting into it. It talks at a level that can be applied to everybody. And I think Intela, to the statistics environment and the industry that we work in, I think there’s lots of things in here that we can take learnings from. Even if you’re not a Liverpool supporter, there’s something in this book for you, I’d say. Yes, absolutely.

03:49
Yeah, we could of course talk about soccer all day long, but one of my favorite things to talk about today, it’s really about this book and the chimp paradox in the book speaks to these two different parties. Yes, the chimp and the human that kind of interact in your brain. It’s kind of a really nice way of thinking of how your brain functions. There’s a chimp that is

04:15
really really powerful. and a usual grown-up chimp is kind of ten times more powerful than a human and that’s about the same in the brain. And he’s much faster, much stronger and if they just kind of wrestle along then the chimp always wins. However, the human is much more kind of logical and can basically apply certain techniques to make the chimp behave.

04:44
But that needs to be done very intentionally and very carefully. And this kind of analogy from kind of chimp and human is really, really nice because I think it helps us to see how we behave and how we function. And whether that is the chimp in our brains that is currently doing something or whether it’s a human in our brains that’s doing something. How would you describe this kind of chimp versus human dichotomy?

05:15
Yes, when I read this book, clearly the chimp part of our brain interacting with the human part of our brain. And this is a sort of a simplification of a very complicated way in which the brain works. This is a nice, simple model. And I think when you go into the book, it says that, you know, this doesn’t work for everybody, but there’s a lot that you can take from this model.

05:41
There’s also a third part, which is the computer part of your brain. They have your chimp, which is much more emotional. A chimp behaves in a very territorial way, very fast, very reactive. And as you say, your human part of your brain is very logical and thinks in a very rational way. And then you’ve got your computer part, which you kind of program.

06:09
And I know that I’m speaking to a statistician, so I’ve got to be careful here, but you program the computer in a way which is built up on sort of experiences and situations and experiences throughout your life. So the different types of your brain in this model and how they interact. And this, I have to say is one of those books that can just change your life in a very positive way and can help you address the way in which

06:38
you communicate and it can also help you if you are suffering, I guess, with certain mental imbalances. So it’s a very, a very interesting book. When I started reading it, I immediately thought, wow, doing a podcast on this is very exciting because I think it opens up a huge area of sort of unmet discussion, but also it’s a journey and

07:06
Like all journeys, whether you’re going on a holiday or where you’re going on a big business meeting, you have to pack and think about your journey. And this journey is one that you undertaking this is going to change your life like a big trip would do. And you’ve got to be prepared for that. And what I found after reading this book and reading associated material is that

07:33
Once you start uncovering and working with this type of model off your brain, you may want to start having some mentoring or some exercises to do to fully embrace all the components that come out of this model. Or you can just read it and say, yeah, that was interesting and kind of put the book down again. So it depends on the type of journey you want to undertake. But for me, I think this is a very transformational.

08:02
A type of thinking on how you think. I’m quite keen to try to distill down some points in this book and how this might be effective for your sort of statistical audience. What was your thoughts on that? Yeah, completely agree. So I was just thinking about one of the, let’s say common problems. And that is about imagine you come into a room and there’s a big meeting.

08:31
Yeah. And there’s lots of senior people, more senior than you are. You now need to basically speak up. Yeah. And you need to, there’s some kind of discussion about, you know, project and you need to speak up to correct some false beliefs there in the room in terms of how everything works together. And now what’s your chimp doing? Yes. The chimp in your brain tells you, this

08:57
really really bad things can happen. These are all so senior these people and when you say something wrong they will rip off your head and kick it out of the door. Yeah and so you know your adrenaline goes up and you have this fear therefore because you think and there are these goblins from the computer come in you’re inferior to these people. You better don’t speak up.

09:24
far, far, far too complicated and really serious and really, really bad things can happen. This is where then your chimp takes over the control and makes you not speaking up. How can you now manage your chimp that, you you think about this much more logically and then how can you combat your fear at that point? Yes. And I think the heart of what you’re getting to is this fight the light.

09:54
or freeze way we can think. And when you’re sort of forced or faced with something, your chimp wants to kind of fight and there’s that sort of aggressive bit. Or your human part, which is much more rational, is thinking, well, I know this and I can logically understand and I can respond in a very logical and rational manner.

10:22
or that you can sort of freeze and pretend that nothing’s happening and almost sort of deny that there’s a threat at all. So in that situation that you’re faced in that meeting room, and I was also thinking about meetings and how, we’re in lockdown at the moment here in the UK, though meetings have all moved over to Zoom calls and you still have that, your face is on a little square.

10:51
and then somebody asks you a question and you either know the answer and your human part responds in a very logical way or you don’t know the answer and your brain can move to this chimp of, know, just answering very quickly emotionally and being very charged. And I think that that for me, this method of trying to understand how you think in certain situations.

11:20
and what part of your brain is kicking in. And often after you’ve reflected on what you’ve said, whether it be on a zoom call or in a big meeting room, it’s then you recognize that it was the chimp that was speaking and you regret that you say, ah, I wish I’d answered that differently. I wish I’d been more logical in my response, but the chimp is faster. The information hits the chimp first. So if you haven’t got the experience, if you haven’t

11:50
build up those types of responses and worked on that, then your chimp is going to overrun, he’s going to kick in. So I found that really interesting and there’s lots of situations blittered in this book. Do you mind if I go off on a tangent? that okay? I don’t know, that’s completely fine. When you were talking about this kind of meeting situation, another kind of thing is you get asked this question and then you have this goblin in your headset that tells you.

12:20
I don’t want to look stupid. Yeah. So I need to answer this. Yeah. Therefore the term reacts and answers. Yeah. Because yes, this is this is Koblenz in the computer says you don’t want to appear stupid. Yeah. And that’s in your programmed response in it rather than thinking about it and thinking maybe being vulnerable here and saying, I don’t know exactly, but

12:46
Here’s a couple of thoughts I have about it, but I would need to check them further. Yeah. And being completely honest about it. Yeah. But because your chimp reacts, you don’t come to that, but you wanted to work a go on attention. So one of the examples in the book, and I thought this was very useful is the way that which the chimp responds. Typically, you know, if you’re given a box of biscuits and the chimp is in the jungle.

13:14
This is the last potential meal that the chimp can have. So the chimp wants to eat all the biscuits. You know, you’ve got a pack of biscuits there. The chimp is like, right, this is the last time I’m going to eat. I’m eating all of these. And then, the human part of your brain is like, well, you know, I could have a biscuit today, one this afternoon, one tomorrow, you know, I can spread this out. This isn’t going to be my last meal.

13:39
If I eat all the biscuits, that’s probably not great for my health, et cetera, et cetera. And thinks these things in a very logical way, but sometimes, well, we know that the chimp is very strong. And before you even know it, you’ve eaten 10 biscuits and you’re feeling like, you’re like, and you’re reflecting on that. And you’re like, why, why did I do that? What happened there? And I think, you know, in a very simplistic way, we all know that we have these different

14:09
different competing parts of the brain. And I think whether you call it a chimp or whether you’ve got a special name for it, when you read into it, there’s a lot of people have taken this methodology and personalised it for their own. Thinking about the way that the chimp works and how that works in your brain is very useful and very powerful. I think there is another example about how you’re sitting across from a person in a restaurant and

14:37
They move the tomato sauce closer to their side of the table and then the mustard and then the salt and pepper. And it’s a very territorial thing. On the other side of the table is thinking, huh, I kind of want the tomato sauce, but I don’t feel like I can really reach over and just grab it. And there’s that sort of territorial thing going on. It’s a very territorial and how, you know, that

15:05
can quickly override and be completely mistaken. And then you get a chimp talking to another chimp, your territorial talking to another territorial person. And that can only lead into an argument, aggression, a fight. Whereas then your human kicks in and it’s actually, you know, moving the tomato sauce or the mustard back to the center ground. And I just thought that was a wonderful, simplistic explanation of what’s going on here. know? Yeah, completely agree.

15:34
There’s lots of positive sides about the chimp, yeah, because it makes our life easy and makes the brain not to consume so much energy. But if in these crucial conversations, the chimp takes over, then that can lead to quite big disaster. What I really found awesome is the question that you can ask yourself in terms of finding out whether the chimp is behaving or the human is behaving.

16:02
And this question was, do you want to behave or feel this way? So kind of a really nice reflective question for you. And the trick in there is that you, with asking this question, you actually get the human to work. Yeah. Because in your brain, more kind of the power to the prefrontal cortex.

16:30
where your brain is where your human is working rather than in your amygdala where your chimp is sitting. That then helps you to kind of reflect is that some conscious human choice or is this a subconscious chimp choice. And so coming back for example to the meeting situation where you’re sitting there and you’re freezing and you’re fearful. No, I don’t want to be fearful.

16:59
There is no kind of tiger in here that will really eat my hat. What is really the worst thing that can happen? The worst thing that can happen is probably I’m not articulating well my point and I maybe need to repeat it. Yeah. Or maybe I need to then later have a follow up on it. That’s the much worse thing is if I don’t speak up and nobody makes a good decision here in the room. And that’s just

17:28
far worse than I’m speaking up and maybe not directly finding the right words. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Alexander, one of the things I’d like to extend to, if I may, in this book, and it talks about how chimps live in tribes and we in life select who our tribe members are. And those might be like-minded people. We think, you know, that we want to have those.

17:56
people in our social group. And then we have our tribes, which is the people that we work with. We don’t select those, but we’ve kind of got to sort of form a team. And one of the things that this book does delve into is kind of stress and how debilitating and how bad that is for us as humans. And this sort of notion that there’s a chimp side of our brain that feels like

18:22
We don’t want to let the try down. So we have to work all the hours physically possible. We have to work more than other people because we don’t want to let the try down. And that’s a very sort of chimp way of sort of thinking. And I thought that was really interesting and how we push ourselves and we don’t recuperate. We don’t relax. We don’t rest and we don’t sleep. And it’s a cycle.

18:52
of things that, you know, the chimp is pushing in a very negative way that we don’t do these very rational things. And then we don’t perform as well because we’re not well rested. We haven’t relaxed. And I think, you know, another book that I would love to review with you is Why We Sleep by Walker. I think that book is absolutely phenomenal, but how positive sleep is. And our chimp.

19:19
has to be rested, it has to be relaxed, it has to have slept because when it’s not, it’s a very negative and destructive part of our brain. Did you get that sense? I can completely relate to it. So the more I become sleepy, the more I’m not well rested, the much easier is it for the chimp to take over. Yeah. It is.

19:48
When I’m at home in the evening, negative thoughts are much easier to come through than if I’m rusted in the morning. It’s much easier to get into arguments with someone in the evening when you’re not well-rested. so it’s really like a spiral. The more you let the chimp drive this behavior of exhaustion, the more powerful the chimp becomes.

20:18
And so you really need to break through that. there’s, know, again, probably the easy question, you know, do I want to feel this way? Do I want to feel exhausted? Do I want to feel kind of burned out or do I have a choice here? Yeah. And can make a conscious break and can manage my time. And that is, you know, where it’s back to kind of, you need to, you need to manage your chimp. Yeah.

20:46
You can’t completely control the gym, but you need to manage it. And there’s times when you need to let the gym went in a kind of controlled way. yeah, then you need to do this kind of consciously. So if you’re really angry about it, get into the bathroom and just kind of shout it out. Get it all.

21:16
I also took from the book, which I thought was phenomenal and, you know, going back to that tribe, um, but the chimp does need to be exercised. um, and having really good friends and people who provide a non-judgmental space for you. So you just let your chimp vent. And I think, you know, having people that, you know, you can just talk to and, know, I,

21:46
I say, you know, sort of chewing the card, you know, just getting things off your mind is really exercising that chip, getting that, getting done. And then the human part of your brain can then start, you know, to sort of kick in. And I’ve noticed that on some, you know, video conferences, you know, because people are, they’re cooped up, they’re in lockdown, they’re feeling, you know, caged. And, you know, you come onto some video conferences in

22:16
Sometimes you’ve just got to let that chimp talk to you for a little while and you just have to let them vent their chimp and just talk a little bit in it. I’m not saying a nonsensical way, but a lot of it isn’t constructive or positive. And then after you’ve had that for a little while, then comes the human discussion and the real good stuff starts flowing through. But being cognitive of that, being mindful of people’s, you know,

22:45
how they’re communicating, where it comes from. I’ve really found that powerful from this book. I have to say it’s been a transformational way of thinking. Yeah, I completely agree. is, you know, one of the things that I completely misunderstood in my life many, many times. Yeah. When there was someone coming with a problem, yeah. And was kind of furious about it. And

23:14
I let my kind of human part go in there and try to solve this problem directly. That didn’t help. It’s just at this moment you just need to kind of absorb it and kind of withhold this reaction of trying to just solve it. So I think this is also kind of the chimp part that

23:41
comes out and the chimp wants to get rid of this kind of bad feeling if someone vents at us. And we want to get away with this bad feeling. And we want to get this problem solved so that the other person isn’t worrying us. And that’s also typical chimp reaction. And the human then needs to kind of understand, there’s a chimp talking to us.

24:10
And at the moment, and the only way we can get out of it is just let the chimp exercise vent. And then we’ll see kind of after some, yeah, minutes, maybe it’s three, maybe it’s 15. You know, the chimp has lost its power and exercise enough, and then you can get back to the human parking. But yeah, then you just need to give it time. Yeah. Completely see that point. I think also.

24:40
as I use that sort of analogy before, you know, sort of going on a journey. it’s, you know, this book is a sort of a journey. And it’s also, you know, thinking about what does success look like and having different success criteria. And often people set themselves up to fail. Their expectation of what they want from their life is very chimp led. But when you really look into your sort of

25:09
a human rational, what can I really achieve? And think about that in a very logical and rational manner. You’re going to gear yourself up much more for success in that aspect. And there’s that chimp part that, you know, I go back to this sort of the jungle that they want the material, they want the land, they want, you know, the, what was that? The sort of phrase before they want that sort of jurisdiction. So

25:38
you know, sort of setting up what are really achievable goals. What, you know, what is your human saying versus what your chimp is setting for you? I found that quite enlightening. Yeah. I think there is, you know, we all work in our organizations and, you know, we have lots, you know, we

26:01
management by objectives where we have our yearly goals and things like that. I talk in the podcast quite a lot about goal setting. Yeah. I think there’s some, you know, good thing in setting stretch goals. Yeah. That challenge you because that gets you out of your comfort zone and things like that. However, the chimp can set in there and kind of keep fighting and fighting and fighting and pushing and pushing and pushing and

26:30
You never kind of let go of things. And so the problem there is that you, I think, never celebrate your wins. Yeah. It’s kind of, you have this stretch goal. Let’s say, you want to kind of be really good in a certain technique. Yeah. And you want to understand, you read this book and understand that 100%. Yeah.

27:00
And that’s your goal. And then you get to all the book. Yeah. And you have done all the exercises in the book. Just this last paragraph of this last kind of chapter in the book. You find it really difficult or you don’t find the time to actually read it into the corresponding exercises. And then you kind of beat yourself up about missing this chapter and not reaching your goal.

27:31
And the problem there is that you, then we just focus on this gap. Yeah. Instead of celebrating what we maybe did all the other 19 chapters. Yes. And as you know, we reached 95 % of our goal. Yeah. And you know, not stretch goal would have been 60 % or maybe 50%. Yeah. So we completely overachieve.

27:57
But we get so hung up on these 5 % that we didn’t achieve that we beat ourselves up. And I think that’s a very, very, very common type that we run into if we want to be really good, want to be overachievers, want to be winners and say, yeah, we just focus on this 5 % gap instead of on the 95 % achievement part. True. Very, very true.

28:26
Very true. There’s a really interesting article by Michael Hyatt about this, that we are overly focusing on these gaps and that we much more kind of consciously need to look at these successes and actually celebrate them. I think that’s the interesting part is celebration is actually the human acting, not the chimp. Yeah.

28:55
It’s really important to celebrate because that helps you to reflect on what you have achieved. It helps you to acknowledge your achievements and therefore also gives re-emphasizers of what you did well. So it trains basically your brain to redo those things that helped to achieve you something. So it’s kind of a…

29:22
managing your chins and then training your human side apart. And also, maybe you could comment on this because I think in the book, it talks about how the computer parts of your brain and in an ideal situation, you fill your brain up from a very early age, fill your computer up with really positive experiences, good learnings, know, all the good perfect programming.

29:51
But we don’t, you know, we have situations where, you know, we’re let down by somebody in the school playground and that puts into our computer a gremlin or a goblin, I think. And, you know, that sort of sits away in the back of your computer parts that tells you that maybe you’re not sort of good enough or, you know, there was a situation where you feel inadequate and then that comes out and that part talks to the chimp.

30:21
in a very sort of negative, you know, sort of in a negative way. And I was interested when I was reading the book, because I think, you know, we aren’t computers. aren’t, you know, it’s so such a multifaceted thing. And the more, you know, you kind of look at the brain and how it functions, you realize the more you just don’t understand. But this paradox, this chimp paradox is a really nice simplistic method.

30:51
of, guess, looking at a sort of a three cog machine with the chimps, human and the computer. But I was fascinated in, you know, what you do as a statistical programmer and, know, the statistics side, how, how you thought about the programming of the computer part of our brain. Did that resonate at all? Yeah, I think it’s kind of, it’s a little bit like the default options. Yeah.

31:21
So, you know, when you write a program, there’s all kinds of default options in your program. And it depends on how these default options are set up. Yeah. And in the same way, you can think about your brain, what are the default options there? Yeah. And it’s exactly like you have these kinds of beliefs about yourself. Yeah. So, you’re an introvert and therefore you’re not good at

31:50
public speaking. You’ll never be good as public speaking. You can’t learn that. And of course that’s false belief. Yes. There’s lots of really, really good speakers, public speakers that are introvert and they have trained themselves to be good at it. Yeah. And so that’s a false belief, but identifying this false belief and seeing, oh, that’s actually

32:20
default options that I can change is really, really powerful. Yeah. It’s like exploring in your, in your program and seeing, oh, there’s another option there that I can change here and set to this default option. That’s maybe not helpful in this specific case. Yeah. And in the same way we can think about our, our compute and the brain. Yeah. Finding about all the default options that are in there that

32:50
We think not even of, you know, that they are changeable. Yeah. Because we haven’t recognized them that maybe is that’s just a hidden function. It’s something that like, you know, if you look into all this word and Excel and so on programs, yeah. And you think like,

33:11
I’m really frustrated about this kind of one feature and, know, and you don’t even know how to change it. You take it for granted, but you can actually change it. It’s just so hidden somewhere in a sub menu of a sub menu that you never find it. And it’s, that’s, think, uh, the similarity there. So that is really, really important to self reflect and their coaching.

33:41
can be quite helpful. And working with people that you trust that also challenge you on these beliefs. I think that is where the tribe also, the people you work with can be really effective. If you work only with people that never challenge you, that have absolutely the same beliefs about the world and maybe the same beliefs about

34:11
same false beliefs about them as you have, then you as a group may never see that there are default options that you have. It’s like as a statistician, you cannot be the chair of this meeting. Or as a statistician or a data scientist, you can’t lead this project. You’ll always only be a member.

34:40
Or you’re not part of this discussion. You can only be a consultant here. Yeah. You can’t drive the decision. Things like that. are very, very common misbeliefs and it’s only worked with people that have these, share these misbeliefs. You never, you never notice that you have these misbeliefs. actually, don’t know if we’ve lamented on this in previous podcasts, maybe we have, but about how in our industry and the clerk research.

35:10
space and particularly in click research organizations, there are a great number of statisticians who have been CEOs of some superb companies. And I think, you know, that’s very exciting for this space in particular. actually, you know, when you’re looking for goals, challenges, role models, actually statisticians have a huge part to play.

35:39
And our example provided in the industry as well. So I really recommend this book. I have to say it is a journey. So be ready for that. yeah, I’d be really interested what people think of it. Yep. Yep. Just one last thing that I wanted to mention that kind of I found really interesting in the book is when the chimp is at play.

36:08
he very often focuses on the problem only, yeah, and only kind of laments about the problem. And then it’s about getting the chimp away is trying to focus on solutions. And the story that came to my mind is about that is,

36:32
There’s a story of an Olympic boat race and it was at a site where it was quite windy. It’s not sailing, it’s rowing boats. The more wind, the more difficult it becomes. The setup was that the different lanes were differentially affected.

37:00
And the last lane was the most affected one. And now there were, you know, a couple of different races on this track. And one team that was on the last lane, yeah, started to row and some started to complain and say, actually, you know, stopped the race because there was so much complaining about, you know, the unfair situation and says that they had more waves and more wind and yeah, so they gave up.

37:28
There was another team that was going there and they actually won the race. afterwards they interviewed, you know, you had all these kinds of difficult situations and you had more wins than the others and more waves than the others. How could you kind of, you know, keep with that and things like that? And then the people said, we didn’t care.

37:59
because that is something that we couldn’t change. We only concentrated on what we can control, what’s in the boat, not what’s outside of the boat. With waves, all these things are outside of the boat. What we can control is how we do in the boat. So they completely focused on the solutions and made it happen. And others, they completely only focused on the problem. They gave up. And…

38:27
I found that story so, so helpful and it showed kind of for the first team, the chimp got into action and you know, they only focused on the problems. The second team, they had good management of their chimp and they won the race. And I think you’ve articulated beautifully in that the things that we can control.

38:54
And that’s a really cool thing that we have, the crown that we wear, the things that other people or other things, the weather. And then there’s this sort of joint thing that we can control and so understanding those different buckets. But yeah, the thing that you can control, the thing that you can do well, that is a very famous rugby coach. And it’s, you know, about looking in the mirror.

39:20
And really not, um, not allowing excuses of things that you can’t control to come in. Yeah. there’s the same also in terms of you can control how you feel, how you want to feel. Yeah. We are not kind of, and that’s, it’s again, this kind of question. Do you want to feel this way? Do you want to behave this way? Yeah. It’s.

39:50
I think it’s a really, really brilliant book. It also reminded me a little bit of Daniel Kahneman’s book, thinking fast and slow, goes into the same direction and then gets a little bit more into the specific traps that we typically fall into. So that’s another great book to read about. Okay. So we touched on a lot of, lot of different things in this chat.

40:19
from kind of starting with the author being training the FC Liverpool or coaching the FC Liverpool through computers and chimps and humans and how we can behave better and work better. are kind of a couple of typical traps that we fall into. And I think you hope you got a lot of nuggets that we discussed about.

40:47
that makes you read a complete book. Because as you had mentioned, it’s one of these books that can really, really change your life.

41:00
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