In this last part of the leadership series with Gary Sullivan, we talk about the next steps, you can take to work on your leadership skills.

We cover the following areas:

  • Books
  • Mentoring
  • Role of supervisors
  • Podcasts
  • Mastermind groups
  • Courses

In terms of courses, we specifically dive deeper on The Effective Statistician Leadership Program. You can find more on this program information here!


Practical steps to improve your leadership skills

You are listening to episode number 44 of the Effective Statistician podcast, Ways to Improve Your Leadership Skills, the last part of the interview with Gary Sullivan.

Welcome to the Effective Statistician with Alexander Schacht and Benjamin Pisgill, the weekly podcast for statisticians in the health sector designed to improve your leadership skills, widen your business acumen and enhance your efficiency.

We are coming up with a great free webinar on leadership. It’s about the four biggest mistakes you can make as a statistician in order to fade on leadership and what you can do to get about these problems. Sign up at thee slash webinar where you get everything you need to access the webinar. In this episode, we talk about resources

that help you to improve your leadership skills. And we will specifically talk about the course that is coming up in terms of helping you accelerate your leadership development and what this is all about.

This podcast is created in association with PSI, a global member organization dedicated to leading and promoting best practice and industry initiatives. Join PSI today to further develop your statistical capabilities with access to special interest groups, the video-on-demand content library, free registration to all PSI webinars and much much more. Visit the PSI website at to learn more about PSI activities and become a PSI member today.

Hello again to another episode of the Effective Statistician. And this is the last episode in the series of leaderships episodes that we have with Gary Sullivan. Hi, Gary. How are you doing today? Hi, Alexander. I’m doing really well. Thanks for having me. OK. And today, actually, we talk about ways to improve your leadership skills. And let’s go first in a couple of different resources that are out there.

available for different costs and that basically more or less everybody can use to improve their leadership skills. One of the big resources for me personally in terms of improving my leadership skills are actually books. I read books quite frequently.

Nowadays, I’m listening to most of them as audio books. But this is always a great deal because you get for little money, you get lots of insight. And that helps me a lot to progress in my career in that regard. What about you? Yeah, I would agree. And I don’t read typically, I don’t read specifically books just generally about leadership.

different aspects or different competencies of leadership. And I find that’s a way to really dig into a topic and a specific topic and learn more rather than just about general leadership.

Do you have any kind of specific books in mind that you really like very much about leadership skills? Yeah, there’s a few that I think are pretty easy to read and helpful to, I think, just about anyone. One of them is called The Power of Communication by Fred Garcia. It’s a book about communication, but it’s also a book about

how to influence with communication, the importance of communication. I’ve seen Fred talk and he’s actually, I’ve attended some sort of courses from him as well. And his material and his concepts and his knowledge about leadership and the way he structures it are really helpful. Another book, and actually there’s a series of books written by Patrick Lencioni.

and he writes his books in a parable form. So he’ll hone in on a specific concept or a general topic, but he’ll sort of tell a story and he’ll introduce the concepts around the story. And his books are really short and easy to read. One of my favorite ones is the five dysfunctions of a team. And it really talks about teamwork and the different aspects of teamwork.

It’s a really short story. You can read it in a couple days just sitting down. Those are two of my favorites. One of my favorite books is also a parable. It’s called Our Iceberg is Melting by John Cotter. It’s really a nice book about change management. You can read it on a very, very short flight, maybe just an hour flight. It tells a very, very nice story about…

penguins that recognize that their iceberg is melting and what they now need to change about that. Another nice book that is actually more about self-management is Atomic Habits by James Clear, which is really nice for building habits on a regular basis or for breaking bad habits as well.

And in terms of specifically about leadership, a book that I recently read is by Brene Brown about Dare to Lead. And that is also very, very nice. It speaks about vulnerability and lots of these aspects around it. So yeah, I’d mention one more.

I’ve read quite a few biographies of accomplished leaders. And I think that’s another great way to just understand leadership styles and see different leadership type of actions and characteristics in action. They’ll give examples. So one of my favorite books is, it’s a book written by Robert Gates, who was the former Secretary of Defense here in the United States.

under presidents Bush and Obama. And he wrote a book called duty. And it talks about his time as secretary of defense, but really gives you some great insights into how he leads. And I mean, I really like his leadership style. So that’s another reason I enjoyed the book. Yeah, yeah. I also read some books by about football managers like Pep Guardiola.

And these are also very, very interesting from a leadership perspective because it’s really for them very, very important to get their communication across and build a strong team, you know, have this team spirit and get everybody to agree to a common tactic, these kind of things. Really, really interesting. Yeah. So, books are one.

very, very good thing. Another thing that helped me a lot was mentoring. To actually have mentors mostly within the company, not necessarily from statistics, but also from other areas that helped me with different leadership aspects.

more formal and maybe less formal mentors. I found that there were people that I would meet with regularly specifically for purposes of mentoring, but then there were also people that I would just have lunch with or meet with less frequently and just leaders that I would, you know, tap their brains and ask questions and again, you can just learn a lot from people that have been in leadership roles and positions.

Yeah, I think very often this is on a rather informal basis at the beginning. As you said, you meet for lunch or you have a coffee after your project meeting or things like that. And through these kind of circumstances, you can learn a lot about leadership. Also you can directly observe how they lead. And then afterwards, you know…

ask questions about that. So that’s really, really helpful. But you also have been a mentor for quite some time, haven’t you? Yes, and I’m still mentoring people even after as I’m semi retired. And I find that I’m getting actually better and better at it. Just because of all the knowledge I guess I’ve acquired over the years. But actually in the mentoring role, I learned

a lot as well from the people I mentor. So I try to, as I’m going through from week to week, if I think about things or have experiences, I’ll jot them down and remind myself to sort of share them with people that I’m mentoring or meeting with. And I think really good mentors do that. They’ll come to you and they’ll always want to share something they’ve experienced. But as a mentee,

Sometimes you really have to sort of tap into them. And I would encourage people to get mentors and to also be very specific about what type of things you’d like to learn from them. And don’t be afraid to really make them sort of dive in and share their experiences. Yep.

Actually, my supervisors played a very important role in identifying these mentors for me because they had sometimes better relationships to people and asked them to be my mentors. That was sometimes also very, very helpful. As well as sometimes it’s really nice to bounce off ideas.

with supervisors in your regular one-to-ones with them and speak about difficult situations, how you can approach things and, yeah. So it’s really, really helpful to work with supervisors in terms of that. And I think the role of a supervisor is really important in your leadership development, even if they’re not specifically mentoring you or even when they’re not giving you guidance or you’re learning from them.

They need to support what you’re doing and as you said, sort of bounce ideas off them in terms of how you develop as a leader, identify mentors, provide you with potentially experiences or point you in directions or just provide you feedback in terms of ways that you can improve as a leader. But I think the support of the supervisor and engaging them in whatever you’re doing to improve your leadership skills is very important.

Another area where I learned a lot is just from peer-to-peer interactions. So discussions with other people that had exactly the same challenges, maybe worked with similar people or maybe even the same people and helped me understand what worked for them in terms of getting buy-in from other people, convincing other people.

setting up projects in such a way that worked successfully. So this kind of informal peer groups, so to say, really helped a lot as well. Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Lots of learning amongst people. When I was on our leadership team, connected really well with a couple of folks and we would sort of even share.

different ideas or perspectives on things that were issues that we were discussing within the team, and then we can sort of take them into the team, one or both of us, in terms of sharing an idea or perspectives or things like that. I think when you’re in a team situation, sort of connecting with people, individuals in the team is important in terms of sort of building alignments. So just sort of…

like you said, bouncing ideas off of people and getting a perspective on things before you sort of broach it with the whole team. Okay, so now we discussed books, mentoring, supervisor, and peer-to-peer groups. Finally, a nice resource that for me is helpful is podcasts. So, unfortunately, I never found really a nice podcast for kind of the…

the leaderships that we are talking about, kind of the leadership where you don’t have a title and you’re not the supervisor in terms of leadership. There’s lots of very, very good podcasts about there in terms of, so to say, manager type of leaders. One podcast that I listen to quite frequently is one by Michael Hyatt.

And there’s another one by what’s called Manager Tools. Very, very good podcast as well as some German ones. And do you ever listen to such podcasts? I don’t, I don’t listen to the leadership specific type podcast. Again, it kind of gets back to what I said about books. One of the podcasts on our national pub, there’s two podcasts on our national public radio.

programs here in the States. One is called the TED Radio Hour. And it just, it picks topics, and then it’ll reference a couple different TED Talks on that topic. And not all the time, but I would say a lot of the time, there are topics that are relevant to leadership. And again, it’s a great way to learn about just specific little

ideas or characteristics or different leadership competencies or concepts or approaches to different things. There’s been some on like the power of change or influence or teamwork and stuff like that. And another one that I’ve listened to is called, and again, it’s on national public radio is called How I Built This. And it talks to entrepreneurs.

So people that are very accomplished in sort of building their own business and coming up with ideas so you can learn a lot about not just leading people but innovation, perseverance, how to deal with setbacks, those types of things. So those are those are two good ones that I’ve listened to over the years. Yeah. Unfortunately, all of these things are very, very generic. And lots of them, you know, are

spread across lots of lots of different things. If you want to get kind of leadership training in a very, very, you know, down to the most specific things that you need as a statistician, there’s actually very little out there. Of course, there is the professions like the

events in terms of leadership trainings, but there’s nothing outside that is really kind of where you don’t need to travel all the time, some things where you have support over a longer period of time because I think leadership is really something that you learn by in kind of cycles. You know, you learn it in terms of you get information.

you try it out, you fail, you need to speak about why did you fail, then you know, get feedback on that, try again, and so to say, improve over time more and more. Yeah, as I teach leadership courses, most of them are just one or two days. And I’ll make that comment, usually upfront is that I’m not going to teach you how to be a leader in a day.

and that they do need to invest in their leadership. And interestingly, at the end of the course, we usually talk about things like we just talked about, like here are some books that you can read, using, leveraging others, forming small groups, those types of things. So I agree that it would talk about the idea of investing in your leadership. And so it really is a long-term commitment. I think those courses are good because a lot of people just don’t even know where to get started.

And so the one or two day courses can help you get grounded in what leadership is all about and at least give you some sense of direction as to how to get started. But I would agree with you. Yeah. In terms of these courses, so to overcome these kind of limitations that the overall

actually put together a program, the Effective Leadership, Statistician Leadership program. And this is really about helping you to progress in your career in terms of leadership. It’s specifically for statisticians, from statisticians like Gary and myself. And what you will get from this program is basically…

three different things. The first thing is you will get an understanding of the foundations who will deeply understand leadership, you get some tools for building the foundation as an effective leader, and you will be able to explain role of trust and communication in terms of statistical leadership. You will be able to apply communication concepts and techniques.

for various situations where you need that as a statistician. And also you will be able to learn how to build trust with your business partners being at statisticians or non-statisticians. A second thing will be you will learn how to influence and create change because lots of what leadership is about is creating change. You know, you want to…

make sure that a new statistical approach is used, or you want to convince your business partner that it’s a traditional way of doing things is not optimal. So there’s lots of change involved in influencing. So after you complete the course, you’ll be able to understand why developing things like business acumen is important.

and you will know how to work better with your collaborators based on these better understanding of business and the science. You will also be having different approaches to influence thinking and decisions, and that will help you in your day-to-day work and these kind of things.

And also, you will be able to generate and formulate ideas to improve business processes via statistical means. So, third thing is you will also be able to develop and implement a specific for you designed action plan, because as Gary just said, you know, this is not a once thing effort,

What we want to make sure is that you create a habit of improving your leadership skills. And so after finalization of the program, you will have already started and implemented specific actions to improve your communication skills and build trust with your collaborators, improve your understanding of the business and…

make sure that you continue to study and learn about leadership concepts. So these are kind of the three big things that you will get away from the course that we are about to start, understanding the foundations of leadership, influencing and creating change, and develop and implement a personal election plan. Gary, do you want to add to these kind of…

three things? I won’t add. I think that’s the we’re going to be able to cover plenty of information. I think the thing I would say is that the way that we’ve laid out the course, I think, is the most sensible way to approach leadership. Just in terms of as you try to learn any skill, the first part is, again, sort of understanding the fundamentals. So I think starting with the foundation of communication and trust, and that allows you to be more effective.

in team situations and working with people. And I think once you understand and lay that foundation, then we begin to build on it with the idea of being able to influence and create change and those types of things. The notion of developing an action plan, as you said, I think it’s so important over a period of time to form a habit of studying leadership and investing in your own leadership. So.

And again, based on my experiences teaching, this is, I think, the most effective way to teach a course over a period of time to start to formulate those habits and again, start with the foundation and then build from there. Yeah. And of course, it takes time to build these habits. This is not something that you develop over a weekend. We all know that if we want to.

implement a new habit that takes weeks and months. And that’s why we designed the course to run actually over six months. Actually over six four-week cycles because each cycle will contain of four weeks. We’ll start every cycle first with a webinar through which we introduce the topic of the month so to say.

and all the participants will be able to ask questions and will have a Q&A after the webinar. The following week, we will have small group discussions. So, as you know, this peer-to-peer interaction and accountability is really, really important to move forward and make it very, very specific to the individual.

participants, we will put the different participants into smaller groups in which they can actually discuss about challenges and reflect about what they learned, how they implemented in their day-to-day life, and to overcome actually any barriers that they have there.

In the third week, we will then have some audio material. You will be able to listen to this podcast player, basically, and then that will give you additional information, more in-depth material on the topic of the month. And then the fourth week, we’ll again have a small group discussions to follow up on the topics.

And so that concludes basically a four week cycle. Each of these cycle is then basically on one topic. So we will have six different topics over these six different months. So small groups, I think is really, really important because they make sure that all the people stay engaged.

that you really get something out of it. It makes sure that the leadership topics are breaking down into specific actions for you. So you’re not kind of left alone with some material and then don’t know what to do with it, but you have specific actions and you can follow up on these and then, you know, discuss about these with the other peers in the group. And these peer…

discussions will be moderated by Gary and myself. Yeah, Alexander, I would just say, like I said, the other thing I think that’s really nice about this setup is that there’s different sort of vehicles for learning. So the webinar with Q&A is a semi-formal way. So there’s material presented. There’s some live Q&A. It allows people to ask questions in the moment. Like you said, the small discussion groups, I think, are really important because it helps people.

learn from others, people are allowed to sort of practice communication skills, working together in small groups and allows them to sort of dive into the topic in a very informal way. The podcast, again, may be more a lecture style, but again, an effective way of learning. So these methods sort of allow people to think and reflect.

and engage in the learning in different ways, which I think is really helpful for someone to really dig in and learn a concept. Yeah, because leadership is such a complex topic, you really can only learn it by practicing it. That’s, I think, one of the key things. Also, there’s all these kind of questions that…

come at any given point in time through the six months and to able to respond to these questions as a bonus, we will also create a Facebook group. So in the Facebook group, you can post any questions. We will probably also add additional materials there. Maybe we do some Facebook Live or something like this. That’s…

you will see when you will get into the program. But there you will get in touch with all the other participants. And really, everybody can help everybody in the Facebook group. Yes. The Facebook group is also very, very important for us to make sure we get feedback through the course, on the course, about the course. Because initially, we’ve been

basically launch a beta version of the course. And we want to make sure that the course really fits the need of the statisticians. So all the participants in the first version of the course, the beta version of the course, will only have a reduced price, only pay a reduced price. And as we just then.

need to get some feedback about it to make sure that the course improves over time.

Okay, let’s dive a little bit into the six different parts of the course. Gary. Yeah. So, in terms of, as we sort of talked about, starting with the foundation, the first topic will be around just an introduction to leadership. And we’ll maybe start with the end in mind in terms of sort of sharing, okay, here’s where we want you to be coming out.

at the back end of this, some things to think about as people are going through the course. We’ll talk about the idea of being a student of leadership and what that means. We’ll talk a little bit about leadership and specifically what that means and maybe talk about some definitions of leadership. I think that’s something that’s very important for people to understand before really diving in and trying to develop leadership.

And then I think another important topic is the notion of the difference between emergent and assigned leadership and how that relates to people in their different roles and just how important it is to understand that because part of what I believe is most leadership is emergent and so understanding the difference between those and what those mean.

And how that applies to each individual, I think, is an important sort of first step in moving along and up the ladder of developing leadership. The second part is about communication and trust. And I think we talked a lot about this in a previous episode. And as a third topic, we have a really, really nice one that is one of the biggest barriers.

actually, isn’t it? Yeah, as statisticians, I mean, we all work in teams. And understanding the teamwork and how to be an effective teammate and how to make teams work effectively is very important. And then inevitably, with teams and with collaborations, there comes conflict, disagreement, differences of opinion. And as I’ve taught leadership classes, that’s something that

How do we deal with conflict? How do we resolve upsets and things like that? So we will spend time on that. It’s a very important topic. OK, and then we have organizational and business acumen as a fourth bullet point in the first month. What do we learn there?

Yeah, so I think in terms of, and this again is sort of a foundational piece of influence and driving change, is understanding the big picture. So not just things like, I mean, things as general as the vision and mission and the strategy, but then also specifics around the people that you are working with and those that you’re ultimately going to be trying to influence.

Whether it’s scientifically based or business based, or there’s always an element of business in anything people do. So kind of understanding that big picture type of thinking, understanding some specifics about the business to allow you to more effectively grasp what the organization is trying to accomplish.

And again, that sort of sets up for the ability to influence and drive change. Yep. Influence and drive change is in the topic of the fifth month. And the last month, we will speak about focus and action planning. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so one of the things I think about leadership, and it’s important, so I think once you want to develop as a leader, you can quickly be overwhelmed by all that you feel that you have to learn. So I think focus is a key thing in terms of what is it that you need to to learn most about with regard to leadership, and that may be specific to someone’s role.

the role that they’re in or the role that they want to be in or the situation that they’re in. Maybe communication is the most important thing. Maybe it’s how to negotiate. There are all sorts of different situations. There’s never a one size fits all. And then as we spoke at the beginning, the idea of developing an action plan moving forward so that once you finish the course, you continue on. It’s just sort of the beginning of your study of leadership.

and you sort of carry forth with that. Yeah, yeah. So after the six months, you will have a very, very strong foundation. You will have built a habit of learning about leadership, have really propelled yourself forward in terms of these skills. And from that on, you’ll be on a very, very good trajectory moving out.

the completion of the course, we hope that the…

Small group discussions basically continue. Just because then you have met for six months on a bi-weekly basis and then there should be a very, very good team spirit to move on. And so that will also help to continually have you accountable on moving forward with these skills. And so that will be, I think, a very, very great resource.

helps you to move forward along the trajectory of improving your leadership skills. Also, you will basically continue to have access to all the course material. And of course, we’ll update it over time. We’ll add to things and things like that. And you just will have lifetime access to that, especially for the beta version, you’ll have it and off you go.

In terms of supervisors, why should supervisors actually support you in attending this program? Yeah, as I spoke before, I think it’s really important that anyone that wants to improve their leadership does engage and gain the support of their supervisor. And supervisors themselves, I mean, can consider attending. But this is a way for

an individual to invest generally, I would say, in their soft skills, which are very important. But statisticians really don’t get the time or the training and sometimes even not even the role models to understand how to become influential and how to lead. So starting with things like…

Like I said, some of the foundational things we talked about in terms of communication and trust and developing those, but then understanding how organizations work, those types of things. But more and more, you know, everything’s being driven by data. I mean, we see it every day in all different sectors. So we are the experts in the analysis of data, the design of studies.

We already have the expertise in these things. What we don’t have necessarily training in is how to influence direction, how to impact decision making. Some develop this more quickly over time, but it’s something that can really be helpful in terms of accelerating that development. So that’s one key thing. Another is I think statisticians have really.

raw skills to be strong leaders. I think we’re deep thinkers. We’re good at framing and structuring problems. We are trained and expert in synthesizing and processing information. We’re good at problem solving. We have a thirst for learning. And I think with the field of statistics comes high integrity. These are great foundational skills for leaders. So not only will it help you just

a more effective statistical leader, but there are people that can even rise beyond that if, I think, allowed and given the appropriate training. So we’ve already got a great foundation that’s easy to build on and make statisticians really, really strong, effective leaders. Yeah. And I think in terms of this role model, I think there is this nice snowball effect.

good leader and that’s their role model, that will automatically create more leadership around them. They will help others to step up as well. Over time, that will change the complete organization, the code, complete function, and you can level up your game for the complete department.

Yeah, I think even just the course will sort of change, I think, the mindset of people, because I don’t know that people become statisticians to become leaders, but it’s something that we should think about because of, as I said, the onslaught of data, the great foundation we have as leaders, I think changing sort of the expectation or the mindset that we can be really effective leaders.

is something that I think the course will help change that mindset. And as Alexander said, it creates sort of this virtuous cycle of leaders then building and helping develop other leaders. I would actually say as a statistician, if you don’t have good leadership skills, you can’t be really effective because it doesn’t matter what you kind of design on your computer or anything like that.

If you can’t implement it, if you can’t persuade your team to actually do it, you can’t really do a lot alone as a statistician. You need to work cross-functionally. Ultimately, I think your career will stall if you don’t invest and develop in your leadership skills. Yeah. So in terms of investing in your leadership skills, we actually have some webinars coming up.

So depending on when you’re listening to this, we offer this webinar at three different dates. You can find all the information on this webinar just by going to the effe slash webinar. And there you’ll find some material, dial-in and everything like that. If you have put your email address,

into the newsletter for the effective statistician, you will also get information about that. Okay, let’s talk a little bit about the price, because of course we can’t give that away for free. There’s a lot of investments in terms of time. And actually, I think putting some skin in the game also helps to actually make sure that in these…

small group discussions, so there’s only people that are really, really committed. Because I think that it’s really bad if you go to training and you want to actually really learn something and then all the others, you know, say, do something else. They mostly task, or they don’t show up, or whatsoever. So, this is not for everybody. This is for people that really are engaged.

that really want to commit to becoming an effective statistician and up their game in terms of leadership skills. So in terms of the pricing, we have basically two options that you can choose from. You can either have a one-time payment of 1,499 euros, or you can opt for two payments of each.

849 euros for the first 12 weeks, and another 849 for the second 12 weeks. These prices exclude taxes, of course, because we assume mostly will be paid by companies anyway.

So when will the program start? The program will start on the 26th of February. And as this episode goes live, you can actually go to the home page of the course at the Effective Statistician slash course. And there you’ll find all the materials that we talk about today, as well as anything else to basically register and enroll for the course.

We are closing the card on the 12th of February because we need to know how many people will enroll in the course, which then starts on the 26th of February. So speak to your supervisor, get approval, whatever you need, and then you can go there and register for the course at the Effective Statistician slash course.

Don’t wait too long. It’s only until 12th of February. The other point is if you listen to this after the 12th of February, we want to do that on a more regular basis. So after the 12th of February, you will find on this home page just a field where you can leave your email address. And then.

whenever we open the course again, you will be able to enroll then. But then it will be kind of, you know, it’s a fully developed course with all the feedback from the initial group. And then the prices will go up. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about some frequently asked questions about the course. We already talked about the course.

about the access to the material, basically you have lifetime access to it. So as long as Gary and myself are in business, you have basically access to that. And of course, as I said earlier, we will probably add material, we’ll update the material. So it’s very, very good.

time investment into the course. Yeah, I think that’s one of the really nice things about this course because as I talked to folks sometimes about taking leadership training over a short period of time, so even if it’s for a day or two days, people get sort of, they get busy with with day-to-day work and they feel like they can’t even break away to do that one day course or

they sign up for the course, then they have to cancel. The nice thing about this is it’s a little investment for a lot of weeks. And I would suspect that it’s going to be one to two hours per week. The one hour is going to be the webinars, the podcast, the mastermind groups. But there may be some additional time that’s needed in terms to prepare for those, or just to capture insights, thoughts.

reflections from those from those experience. So I would say on the line of one to two hours a week, which is is a manageable investment for I would think just about everyone. Yeah, because the nice thing is the course actually sits basically within your day to day work. You will basically practice while you’re learning. So your learning experience

is all the time, but you need this one to two hours in addition to actually learn. We already talked about what happens to the small group after we finish the course. So we anticipate that they will be stable enough so that they can actually progress on their own afterwards. And one other thing is if you go into the course,

and you don’t like it. Well, that can always happen, but you have a 24 days money back guarantee. So even if you kind of don’t like it for whatever reason or whatever, things happen in life and you can’t move on, then you’ll get the money back. No problem.

Of course, it would be really, really helpful if you tell us, if there’s something we could change or something like this, because that’s why we start with a beta version of the course. That would be great. But yeah, 24 days full money back guarantee. So we are very, very confident about the course material. There’s lots of expertise going into this course.

That’s why we give this 24-day full money back guarantee.

Okay, still, you know, like an acne kind of thing, over time, people may drop out, you know, even the best clinical studies have dropout rates over time. So

we will, you know, we build the course really to reduce that, to keep retention very, very high. That’s one of the reasons why we have, for example, the Facebook group as a bonus, why we have the small group interactions. If, you know, for some kind of weird reasons, these small groups get too small, then we will just combine them. Okay, so that’s

really it about the course. If you need some kind of further information about it and or generally you want to learn more about leadership then come to our webinars on the 23rd of January, the 1st of February or the 7th of February. Okay, Gary, any final word on the course?

Not really. I’m really excited about it. I think it’ll be sort of a first of its kind in a way, and it’ll be a great way. It really models the way that people need to develop as leaders in terms of investing a little bit of time every week and developing a habit to becoming a devoted student of leadership. So I’m looking forward to it. I’m also so excited about it. So thanks so much.

and see you in the course. Bye! Bye bye. So don’t forget to sign up for the leadership webinar. It’ll be awesome and you don’t want to miss out on this great opportunity to learn more about reasons why statisticians fail to lead and how to overcome them. Of course the webinar is for free. Just sign up at the effe slash webinar. This show was created in association with PSI. Thanks for listening.


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